Category: German Ancestry

Spahr=Witting DNA Matching During May 2025

31/5/2025

Relationship Report
Alve-Selbach

Recently I was able to access DNA matches from my Uncle Ivan Alve's DNA sample. At age 94 he is a generation back from me and his matching is throwing up some new insights. In particular he is providing information about a new line of research; that into his and my Spahr=Witting ancestors in Germany.
As below, Heinz-Georg Selbach is a DNA match with NZ Alves. In particular his 3xgreat grandfather Gerhard Heinrich Spahr is brother to the Catharina Elisabeth Spahr who married Bernard Möllers - the parents of Maria Theresia Alve (nee Möllers) who travelled to A-New Zealand in 1876. Gerhard's and Elisabeth's parents Heinrich Spahr=Adelheid Witting are the most recent common ancestors between the Selbachs and the Alves. Adelheid was born in 1891 (place unknown) and she and Heinrich married in Beckum 1814. Adelheid died 1842 in Beckum.

While to date we know nothing more about Heinrich Spahr other than he fathered (with Adelheid) several children between 1816-1829, Catharina Elisabeth being my, and maybe your, ancestor. This diagram summarises what we know...

Having given thought to this DNA link between Ivan Alve and Heinz-Georg Selbach, I turned my attention to searching for anything more available about Adelheid Witting. My interest was piqued when a DNA match between Ivan and Wolfgang Zeigler indicated some Wittings are probably related.

The mesage that came with the match was that Ivan's MRCA with Wolfgang's Witting line was likely to be Ivan's third or fourth great grandparent. In other words Adelheid Witting's parent or grandparent.

The family tree that came with Wolfgang's DNA information identified these people (see below) as Wilhelm Antonius Witting (1769-1845) and his father Arnold Witting (1723-1797).

Is Adelheid Witting Wilhelm's daughter? Several disqualifiers emerged as I pursued this line of enquiry.

Anna M.M. Tiedeken her mother would have been 14-15 when Adelheid was born!
Existing family trees do not have Adelheid in this family;
These Wittings all have a BDM link to Friesoythe, Cloppenburg, Niedersachsen. Adelheid's marriage (1814) and death (1842) records link her with Beckum far to the south; these towns are almost 200 km apart!

Adelheid is almost certainly not Wilhelm and Anna's daughter.

So I turned to consider Arnold Witting as the possible MRCA. Arnold (b.1723) had at least four other sons than Wilhelm Antonius:

Wilhelm Herman Franziskus Christianus Witting (b.1752-)
Johannes Josephus Witting (b.1754-)
Wilhelm Anton Christian Witting (b.1756-)
Joannes Fridericus Antonius Witting (b.1764-)

There were at least two daughters Gesina and Helena whom I discount because Adelheid's given name was Witting, not the surname of a husband of one of these girls.

For the moment this is where my search pauses until another DNA match with the Wittings, or some other helpful information, is found. As in the above diagram I have Adelheid temporarily attached as a daughter to Joannes F.A. Witting (red). If he is not her father I am reasonably confidant that one of his brothers marked yellow, green or blue is. Once more is known we may also discover the reason for Adelheid marrying in Beckum aged 22-23. A preliminary hunch is that Heinrich Spahr her husband came from Munster, which is about 40 km away....

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Relative Profile: Peter-Jörg Nocken 1945 -

7/5/2025

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Click on image to enlarge.

I discovered Peter-Jörg Nocken when I realised he had a link to my Lamsfuβ ancestors in the region of Hückeswagen where my grandfather Carl Wilhelm Alve was born and grew up. He is my 5th cousin as the image indicates.
In March 2023 we had this exchange on the MyHeritage message board,

Hi Peter
Greetings from New Zealand.
I am a descendant of the Carl Wilhelm=Maria Theresia Alve/Alfe/Alfer (Germany) family who emigrated to NZ from Gelsenkirchen in Germany in 1875/6. I note that your 3xgreat grandfather Peter Wilhelm Lamsfuβ was a younger brother to Anna Lamsfuβ.* I further note that you trace your ancestors back to a Christian Lamsfuβ who was born at the end of the 17th century. During 2019 my wife Margaret and I spent some time in Hückeswagen tracing my Alve ancestors many of whom were born in that area. While there I visited the wee village of Lamsfuβ nearby with a couple of American cousins who also have Alve, and therefore Lamsfuβ, ancestry like me...
Terry Alve
Wellington, NZ

Hi Terry,
You are completely right concerníng your/my forefathers in or around Hückeswagen. I myself was born there in 1945. Christian Lamsfuß is the oldest I could find. My grandmother was his 3x great granddaughter, if you understand, what I mean. No, I do not have any information of a family connection to the village of Lamsfuß. In Hückeswagen all church books are transformed into digital lists. Maybe you can find more information there (if you do not have them yet)...
Best wishes
Peter

* Anna Lamsfuβ was Carl (Jnr) Alve's grandmother.

Peter mentions Christian Lamsfuß who was born in the late 1600s. Me married Catharina von der Höhe and together they were the grandparents of Johann Wilhelm Lamsfuß (1759-1811) who married Catharina Gertrudis Kemmering (1763-1829). These two - Johann Wilhelm and Catharina Gertrudis - are Peter's and my most recent common ancestors (MRCA). They seem to have spent their whole lives in and around Hückeswagen. Another view of Peter's ancestry to our MRCA is this, If you click on the image you may get a larger view of this ancestry chart.

Peter-Jörg Nocken

Peter's ancestry chart above also depicts our most recent common ancestors (MRCA) - Lambsfuß=Kemmering - in the context of his wider maternal family tree: I find two things notable about this.

Anna Catharina Kemper nee Bosbach (b.1790 Kürten) is likely a close relative, if not the sister, of Wilhelm Bosbach (b.1792 in Kürten). Wilhelm was Carl Alve's grandfather - the Carl Alve who came to New Zealand in 1876
Peter's grandfather, Peter Johann Scheurer (1879-1916), was killed in France fighting during WW1.

While I do not know a lot about Peter-Jörg, I do know that he was born in Hückeswagen, Germany and I understand he has been a prominent Jurist (Lawyer). A Google search on his name highlights his involvement as a former Vice President of the Thuringian State Office for the Protection of the Constitution (LfV).
At the age of 80 we might assume he is well into his retirement now.

Terry Alve

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Spahr=Witting DNA Matching During May 2025

Relationship Report
Alve-Selbach

Relative Profile: Peter-Jörg Nocken 1945 -

Click on image to enlarge.

Peter-Jörg Nocken

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Spahr=Witting DNA Matching During May 2025

Relationship Report Alve-Selbach

Relative Profile: Peter-Jörg Nocken 1945 -

Click on image to enlarge.

Peter-Jörg Nocken

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Relationship Report
Alve-Selbach